Mortgage Connects an MGIC Podcast

Overcoming industry obstacles while fostering your relationships

May 12, 2021 MGIC MI Season 1 Episode 2
Mortgage Connects an MGIC Podcast
Overcoming industry obstacles while fostering your relationships
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Managing your pipeline in today's industry can present its own set of challenges. Hear what Phil has to say about the industry and ways you can overcome obstacles you may be faces with today. Regardless of where the chaos of the housing market has you at the moment, maintaining your relationships is crucial to your continued success. 

Thanks for listening to Mortgage Connects, an MGIC podcast. If you have questions, comments, or want to get involved, send an email to mortgageconnects@mgic.com.

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Stephanie Budnik (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to Mortgage Connects by MGIC, bringing you the latest insights from top mortgage professionals around the industry. I'm your host, Stephanie Budnick, and today we'll be connecting with Phil Treadwell, who will talk to us a little bit about the industry over the past 18 months. Hello everybody and welcome to Mortgage Connects. Today we have Phil Treadwell with us. He is a 17 year veteran of the mortgage industry as a top producing, uh, mortgage banker and independent mortgage broker. He is currently the national Director of Sales Innovation and Strategy for Thrive Mortgage, and is the host of Mortgage Marketing Expert Podcast. He was recently named one of the 40 most influential mortgage professionals under 40 by National Mortgage Professional Magazine and Top 20 in the mortgage professional of 2020 by Yahoo Finance. He's a national speaker and frequent guests on industry podcasts like our own, and he does webinars and social media shows. Welcome, Phil.

Phil Treadwell (01:02):
Awesome. Thank you very much. Uh, it's, it's always interesting. You throw too many mortgage in there and it's like every title or subject or whatever, uh, throws it in there, so I appreciate that.

Stephanie Budnik (01:12):
Yeah, absolutely. To that point, can you just give us a little bit of background of what you're doing now and kind of how that plays into the industry, so just people have an idea about it

Phil Treadwell (01:20):
For sure. Yeah, so I've been, uh, in the mortgage industry for 17 years. All of that has been directly, uh, in origination, uh, sales side of the business. So I kind of got thrown in the deep into the pool, uh, as an originator. I had, uh, four or five days of classroom style training. And, uh, then I walked in on the, the last day and, uh, my sales manager, general manager at the time had a big box of flyers and said, "Go talk to realtors and tell 'em to send you business." So, uh, had humble roots where I MapQuested in between the real estate offices, uh, that, that does date me probably a little bit. Um, but, uh, we MapQuested between the offices, uh, for efficiency and did that for a few years. Uh, went to the, um, kind of a net branch model where I was introduced to the broker side of the business.

Phil Treadwell (02:07):
Uh, eventually opened up my own company, uh, sold that to a large, uh, bank at the time, uh, through the financial crisis and, and, uh, then moved more into to production sales leadership where I've been branch manager, regional manager, all that kind of stuff. Uh, my newest role that I started this year with Thrive is, uh, is around sales innovation strategy, and I kind of wear three hats. One is, uh, talent attraction. So I head up our, our recruiting team. Um, I do a lot with marketing and technology, so some kinda a MarTech. And then I also manage some branches that we may not have a regional leader carved out. So, uh, kind of all the things that I enjoy and am passionate about, kind of rolled up into one. So, um, definitely always been exposed to the origination and, and uh, uh, loan side of the business, but I'm also passionate about, you know, marketing and, and technology and things like that

Stephanie Budnik (02:58):
Seems like a, a wide gamut that would fit well with just a diverse group of things. So yeah, <laugh>, <laugh>, I mean, speaking of that in the origination side and being part of just that wide range of things, there's a lot happening in the industry. A lot has happened over the past year, 18 months, especially with COVID and other things. What type of industry things are you seeing that are worth taking note, uh, to?

Phil Treadwell (03:23):
Yeah, so I think the biggest thing that most people, uh, jump to is supply. Um, there is a, uh, tragic almost lack of supply across the country, which is driving prices higher. Uh, you know, uh, anybody that has property is good because it's driving the prices higher, but whenever you have that lack of supply, um, it makes people's buying power kind of, you know, erodes the dollar if you will. At the same time, there's so much cash in the system, uh, whether that's, you know, stimulus or entitlements or things that they're kind of putting in into the system economically from a government level, uh, that's all contributing to the fact that realtors are having a difficult time getting offers accepted. So listing agents are extremely happy because any property they list has a ton of offers. Buyers agents are a little more stressed because they may show, you know, tons of properties and make offers on a bunch before they actually get one accepted.

Phil Treadwell (04:17):
So from a mortgage perspective, I think it's extremely important that originators as they're partnering, assuming they're partnering with, with realtors and other referral partners, that you're finding creative ways to help them get their offers through whether that is some type of a upfront TBD underwrite before they even have a contract to qualify that borrower so that maybe they can, uh, on that contract not have to list a financing contingency. That's the same as cash offer. That's typically a much faster close, which will probably put you higher in the stack of offers. Uh, maybe that's coming up with creative programs, uh, for borrowers that, that make that process a little more seamless. Um, you know, and, and trying to work with them and, and help make their job easier, if you will. And then I think the other thing, as we all talk about interest rates, you know, interest rates are going higher.

Phil Treadwell (05:09):
Um, we're not going to see near as many refinances as we did in 2020, and I think it's just going to continue to, uh, to cycle out. Um, I know that, uh, there's been a lot of moves with, uh, the GSEs, you know, specifically F H F A and you know, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for around investment properties and non unoccupied or second home. And, uh, you know, the ability to qualify for those or, you know, down payment. And it seems that everything is tightening a little bit. That's kind of the, the nature of the environment we're in because offers are hard to get accepted. You know, uh, guidelines seem to be tightening. Um, you know, the interest rates are going up. I see a lot of people, I don't wanna say panicking or frantic, but they're definitely taking note of 2020 was a breeze in getting business. It was just challenge in getting it closed and, and funneling it. Now it's, it's even more difficult, uh, to, to get deals that are actually gonna close and fund. So I think those are some trends or things that are top of mind for people that, uh, you know, are at least topics of conversation mortgage circles.

Stephanie Budnik (06:20):
Sure. That, that makes sense. And I'm thinking of just how busy originators are today and the, the large intake of loans that they have and them closing. Is there any recommendations that you have seen or that are they're being successful that are allowing them to manage that more appropriately with, with the time that, you know, I just constantly hear like, we are, they're so busy, They're so busy, they have so much to do. Um, and not seeing that change because there's just such a high demand and so many things coming in. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Phil Treadwell (06:53):
For sure. I, I think automation is gonna be extremely important and automation gets a bad rep because they assume that automation means no personalization. And I think that there's ways to automate tasks that are duplicatable that don't require a lot of thought. Um, something a little more advanced, like, uh, a company building a bot to go out and pull a flood cert and it come back in and you just get notification when that's complete because that may take, you know, five to 10 minutes each time it's pulled, or three to five minutes, you know, from a processor and creating some efficiency there, because then whoever's, you know, doing that task can move on to something more. It could also be, I'm seeing a lot of originators that they're working in their crm, but maybe it doesn't integrate with their, uh, LOS very well. Or maybe the, the, the pos when someone does an application into the CRM or los like they're trying to track their business.

Phil Treadwell (07:52):
But it's a very, it's a very labor intense process. You can automate that data flow very simply. You know, some companies have their own built in solutions. Sometimes there's third parties, but whenever people are really busy, you have to ask the question, are they busy or are they productive? And sometimes just being busy doesn't mean you're getting a lot done. It means you're dealing with a lot of tasks. And so, you know, as I, we talk about on my podcast or as I coach originators or, or, or speak or whatever it is, we talk a lot about the three E's, uh, effort, effectiveness, and efficiency. Okay. Effort's. What we do, um, effectiveness is what we're doing that's actually getting results. And that efficiency is really doubling down on those tasks that actually get results. And you can take that further. If you're time tracking and you're looking at, Hey, here's what I'm doing every half hour throughout my day, then you can kind of do the red light, yellow light, green light method of the red light is things that you don't need to be doing during productive time.

Phil Treadwell (08:53):
Like you can just cut that out completely. Yellow may be this is income producing or this is a task that needs to get done, but it doesn't have to be done by me. This is something that I can hire for or delegate or automate for or something else. And then you could focus on the most efficient tasks, those green light tasks that this is income producing. This is something that I physically need to be doing. And if you can stack your day with those things, you're gonna get a lot more done. You're gonna be a lot more productive. And you know, I, this morning was on, uh, with a $200 million producer that has a dozen people on her team. And you know, we, her and and I and a couple of people were, were talking about some strategy type things and we were on for probably an hour this morning and she wasn't frantic. She was like, Oh my gosh, I gotta get off here cuz I'm, I'm just so busy now. We couldn't have sat there and talked all day, but you should be able to have a system in place and enough team members around you that it's not the end of the world if you stop and, and think about what's happening. Uh, and I guess the, the, the best way to say it is really focusing on working on your business and not in your business.

Stephanie Budnik (09:58):
That makes a lot of sense. I know we have a program with, with time is money and talking about efficiencies and all the things that rob you of the, of your time. Absolutely. You know, and taking the time to really say, what, what are these things that I'm doing that I don't need to be doing is really important. Thinking about efficiencies in relationships, I know that that goes to, you spoke to, you know, referral or real estate agents being a one. How do you make sure that you're maintaining the most effective partners? You know, there's a lot of people that you can partner with that don't offer you the biggest bang for your buck and they're taking up all your time, all your moments. How do you make sure that you're doing that more, not

Phil Treadwell (10:37):
Appropriately? Yeah, I mean, communication's the biggest key, and I know that that may be a very generic response, but in from the very beginning, as I mentioned, my entire business has been built on referral partner relationships predominantly with realtors. And those, those black and white flyers that I like to kind of make fun of that, you know, I had all these photocopies, um, at the very bottom, one thing that my original mentor made me put at the bottom was my name, my cell phone. And, and then cuz it was a word document underlined, italicized, and bold. It said, available seven days a week. And he said, I never put 24 hours a day. Cuz if you come at one o'clock in the morning, like, I'm not gonna answer. Sure. Your, your partners need to understand that you're there to support them and that you're able to answer a phone call at a lot of times.

Phil Treadwell (11:24):
Now, you may not answer the phone every single time, but you are available and you'll make some time for them if need be. And so that communication of answering their questions when they need to in supporting them when they need it, is extremely important. Also during the transaction, whether your crm, uh, can send out text messages, emails, video messages to the applicable parties, including your referral partners, uh, that's extremely important. So they feel included and know that the progress is being made. And then this is something that I think is super important. Whenever something happens, this is the mortgage business, something's gonna happen in a file. I mean, not every file's going to be clean. Like there's going to be an issue whenever an issue comes up, immediately communicate that for some reason or another, we have this in our minds that we need to come up with a solution and get it fixed or at minimum come up with a solution before we deliver quote unquote bad news.

Phil Treadwell (12:21):
I disagree. And I think if you ask your referral partners and realtors, they would probably disagree as well. Um, because one of my coaches, Tim Behem, who has legend in this industry, said, The height of trust is delivering bad news because nobody wants to do it so bad news or, hey, this, this particular thing happened or have a delay or something, they're going to trust you more because it appears you trust them that they're not gonna freak out if they have any experience at all in mortgage real estate. They're also going to understand this is the industry things are going to come up. Something either didn't get disclosed or there's a, there's a, uh, a kink in the process. Then what happens is if you include them, you can even say, Here's a couple things I think might be a solution. We're immediately working on that.

Phil Treadwell (13:08):
But I wanted to let you know, as soon as I know most of them will thank you over the top. Or here's a, here's a better thought. If they're truly a partner, they may be able to help you come up with a solution. Maybe they had another piece of information that's gonna help you fix that whole situation. So that ties into that original communication piece, communicating with your partners, the routine stuff, but also the, uh, the important stuff or the stuff that you don't want to tell them. And then lastly in that it, it, it should be that partnership where you're communicating boundaries, right? Again, you call me at one o'clock in the morning, I'm not gonna answer, but if you called me in the evening, I know you're with clients, there's a good chance I'm gonna try to answer if I can. And if not, I'm gonna call you back or I'm gonna, you know, send you a text or something.

Phil Treadwell (13:54):
But setting those boundaries and expectations to forge a true partnership and a potentially unpopular opinion for, for originators, you also need to be offering up some value to them outside of the fact that you can close loans fast and you've got competitive rates. Cuz that's par. Okay, go market yourself. Go listen to, uh, podcasts on ello hub with that M G I C has, go use the resources, create your own leads and give them a couple of at bats a month. Right? We, we talk, how do we get in front of good referral partners? How do we get their attention? You know what, I can talk to any realtor in any market for the most part. If I say, Hey, I have a pre-approved buyer that needs someone to help 'em find a house. All of a sudden realtors schedules open wide up, you know, I mean, all of a sudden they're, they're ready to talk to you.

Phil Treadwell (14:43):
So I circle mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, they, exactly. So if you're able to offer them value, especially in the form of leads as opposed to always walking with your handout and I, I use, you know, mortgage insurance or even traditional hazard insurance or title companies, right? We're the customer that those companies will make calls on or try to partner with. What would you want from them? Right? What, what do you want? Of course you want some service and you want, you know, competitive rates, but you also want value. Are they giving you opportunities to work with realtors? Are they giving you opportunities to work on deals? Because all of the mortgage insurance companies, hazard insurance companies and titled companies that I've worked with have, Hey, I wanna make an introduction to this person over here, or I, I, I, here's, here's somebody that think you might be able to work with. Or here's some data that can help you with your business lead with value. And then all of a sudden you have a partnership. And so that's, you know, not a small thing. There's, there's a lot of pieces there, but at the end of the day, create, uh, relationships with people. Set those expectations of what they can depend on from you and what you're looking for from them. And then make it collaborative where you're each adding value and giving each other at bats. And I mean, the relationship should flourish.

Stephanie Budnik (15:57):
I, I really like your piece about adding value. I know that that's hard to do in some instances. It's always like the business and, and that straightforward, but adding that educational piece or that aspect where you're, you're doing something more for them that's ultimately gonna make the process more seamless. Yeah. You know, and improve the experience for both the buyer, the, you know, and, and both people at hand. So that makes a lot of sense. Thinking about what you said about the referral partners and where the industry is and where it's going more like where the refis and our rates are, what do you think the best way to grow your business is going to be this year and coming?

Phil Treadwell (16:34):
I mean, obviously finding creative ways to get purchase business and, you know, excuse me, coming into 2021, um, the three main parts of the purchase market that we're growing were obviously millennials. They're here in force, they waited a little bit longer to enter home ownership, but that's what, you know, 23 to 25, up to 38 to 40, that group of people is fully into home ownership and purchasing homes, uh, you know, from, from top to bottom. So capturing their attention in a relevant way and letting them, uh, find you in not your dad's or your grandpa's ways of doing business. And we're not talking about, you know, running Yellow Pages ads and billboards. It's not that there's not some strategic reasons that that works, but that particular generation, most of them either adopted social media very quickly or grew up on social media. They also remember the, the financial crisis extremely well.

Phil Treadwell (17:30):
So understanding they still want an advisor, uh, and someone of personal touch that can help them make that decision. But they do want a digital experience. They do want to be communicated in a relevant way because that's in every other vertical, how they're conducting business. Another part of that market is Gen Xers who are moving up maybe some empty nesters on the, the older end of that age range. Um, you know, in maybe they're selling a larger home and pivoting to, uh, a smaller home with some vacation homes. And then obviously the third piece of that is investment properties and second homes, because rates are still at historic lows regardless of whether they're increasing now because of some of the changes that have been made. You know, on the, on the conforming conventional side of the business, a lot of that's gonna tighten up some.

Phil Treadwell (18:18):
But I think that focusing on those specific segments and really trying to niche down and, and, and cultivate those specific types of customers or ones that you identified in your market are gonna be very fertile. And that, for those that have been doing a ton of refi, this is the big question we get asked a lot too, is, I did a ton of refi, I need to do more purchase business. Well then it's the same thing that we talked about with referral partners. They start calling and saying, Let me take you to golf or lunch or coffee and tell you how good our service is. Or let me, you know, bring bagels to your office and talk at a sales meeting. And I'm not knocking those things. I've done a lot of all of that and, and they do work to a certain degree, but there's already 12 other vultures out there that are doing the same thing.

Phil Treadwell (18:58):
So how do you set yourself apart and be different? And something that I can say that is something that we're coaching our team to do right now with the refis that you did last year or this year, or, you know, at the end of 2019, um, or as you're doing them, cuz there's still refis happening. Find out who the, uh, realtor was when they originally purchased their home. And ask them, Hey, what was something that um, you really liked about that realtor? What is something that they really went above and beyond something that, that that's special? Um, they'll remember something and tell you and tell you the name of it. In most cases, well now what happens is you have two options. One is you kind of have an opening to reach out to that realtor and say, Hey, I just refied, you know, Phil and his wife Stacy, um, they said that you were the retail or the realtor when they first purchased their, their home and he just remembered whenever it was at 10 o'clock and you guys were fixing something on a contract.

Phil Treadwell (19:52):
And that just meant a lot that you went above and beyond or whatever. And now you're starting a conversation with some something and someone in common and you're highlighting that you respect their business. Or another little pivot on that is create a LinkedIn post or a Facebook post and do say the exact same thing. Um, thank you so much Phil and Stacy Treadwell for, you know, refining with us. Uh, you know, I I really thought it was neat that you told me about, uh, Stephanie, your realtor and how, what a great job she did here and tag everyone. Well, you're making a warm intro, but you're publicly displaying that this realtor did a really great job when they first sold their home. And again, it doesn't have to be exactly like that, but there's lots of creative ways to have conversations with people that you lead with something that's relevant, You lead with something in common.

Phil Treadwell (20:43):
And again, maybe they don't reach out, maybe they don't care, but you need to have something else behind that that matters that, uh, can help them build their business. That's, you know, starting with value, uh, that you're trying to create a partnership. And um, uh, something else that I've, I've been saying a lot lately cuz it was something I learned. I was actually in Clubhouse, um, I was in a podcasting room and people were giving, uh, tips on their podcast and, and, uh, I I've spent a lot of time with other mortgage and real estate podcasters, but not in with people in other verticals. So I was in this room and I went ahead and I said, Hey, I said, I'm just curious, I know in my industry, um, best practices around how to promote and grow audience, but I'd love to just know the other ways people in other verticals or other, you know, industries or or whatnot are, are promoting and, and their podcasts.

Phil Treadwell (21:33):
And the guy that was speaking had worked at Apple Podcasts and he was now doing some fictional podcasts and and stuff. And I, I tell that whole story because his answer was, we spend a lot of time, uh, uh, talking about features of here's what, you know, guests I'm having on or here's what this podcast is about. And if you parallel that to mortgage industry, we talk a lot about service and products and whatever we list features and what we really need to be talking about is benefit. Nobody cares about the features. They care about how those features benefit them. You think of a mortgage itself, no one wants a mortgage. No one's like, gimme a big mortgage with a big payment. Like I want a mortgage really bad. No <laugh>, they want what the mortgage does for them, right? They, they want the home that's purchased with that mortgage.

Phil Treadwell (22:17):
So it's, it's our job as mortgage professionals, uh, and originators to talk to take the features that we have, the programs that we have, the service that we have, and turn that into benefit for customers, for clients. And those need to be the conversation points. And that's why I think that that refi example is so good is we're not even listing a, a feature of the realtor. We're talking about something that they did that benefited a mutual client. And that's where a seed of a, of a relationship can go. And if you continue to add value in those types of ways and help them build their business or find out how they're marketing and add to it, the sky's the limit.

Stephanie Budnik (22:57):
I really like that idea. I hadn't thought of that, but I just recently refinanced and back in February and I had only bought the home a year ago just mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, where rates are and what things are and that that speaks volumes. You know, you don't think about doing that cuz you don't need the realtor after that.

Phil Treadwell (23:13):
Right. So, and that's the problem with most mortgage professionals right now. They see the realtor as a transaction and say, Well I don't need the realtor. And well, you know, they're so refi heavy. I I talked to realtor on my podcast the other day that said we had a lender who religiously sent us cookies and um, like every month or so we would get a card, we would get, you know, cookies, they would text and just see how we were doing, just follow up, just be there. And she's like, We haven't heard from them for months. And she's like, it's not about the cookies. It's about did you find a bigger fish? Did did, are you just so busy with refis that we're not important anymore? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I, I wanna remind people it's not about the communication and how you communicate a lot of times or the little things that you do, it's what does the message give when you stop doing it or if you did it differently like hey we do this big thing but now we're only gonna do this. That's why communication is so important is cuz if it stops people assume the worst.

Stephanie Budnik (24:11):
That's the piece of the nature is what you do is assume the worst. I am one of those people for sure.

Stephanie Budnik (24:18):
Oh, I like how you talked about posting on a social platform. Is there one that you think would be the most beneficial for business use? Or is it based on whom your target is? I know when you spoke about, you know, where I am, I'm in my mid thirties and I'm on on one on the spectrum where I think I'm a lot different than a 23 year old looking for a home, but I'm looking up before I do anything. But I do want that connection. So where do you think you can get that, that value?

Phil Treadwell (24:46):
I, I'm, I'm very bullish on Instagram. I think that your key demographic is going to be on Instagram for the most part. Um, it's also the best place to create different types of content on Instagram. You'll have people that only look at stories. You'll have people that are only scrolling through the feed or you'll have people that are there for short form video similar to tech talk through reels. Um, you can also do long form video with I gtv. So it's a lot of other social platform ideas. Instagram's been the one that we're gonna rip it off and we're gonna do the same thing too. So I think it's one of the best catchalls that's also relevant to the age audience that the, the most of the home buyers who are getting mortgages are in. Now Facebook is probably, uh, a close second from a consumer driven standpoint because people are still active on Facebook and uh, especially in real estate and mortgage for some reason.

Phil Treadwell (25:43):
If you talk to any other vertical, uh, any other industry, they're not huge on Facebook really right now cuz it's aging up so quickly. Um, and the organic traffic isn't, the reason I push back on Facebook is so many times the people that you end up marketing to are the close friends and family that you already have anyway, right? Those are the people you're connected with. So if you want to use Instagram or Facebook, either one, you have to be strategic about reaching out and engaging with content of the people that you're trying to reach. So if that's realtors, um, go to their pages, make meaningful comments, like their posts, potentially follow them or connect with them, engage in their, um, content. Because a lot of this isn't about just posting and creating content. Sometimes the most important thing is to go engage with someone else's content.

Phil Treadwell (26:37):
Cause if I, if I put a post right now, a certain percentage of the people who follow me will see it. But if I go post on someone's uh, post or if I go comments rather on someone's post, they're almost always going to see it. And if it's someone that you don't know, a lot of times you go look at their profile. I mean I do like who is this person that commented on here? I don't know if that is. So you go look at their profile and then you've like that obligatory, well I need to like one of their posts cause they liked one of mine <laugh> which has happened is you've now hacked the algorithm. The algorithm thinks you guys met and now you're friends. And for the next few days at least that's gonna be the first content that they see. So sometimes the best way to create those openings isn't by posting and hoping that you attract the right ones. It's also by engaging with their content and letting them know you exist. So I would say Instagram is probably what I focus the most on from a B to C perspective and, and Facebook as well. And then obviously LinkedIn is by far the best for b to b. Um, and probably where I get the most lift in networking and collaborating with industry professionals. But again, Instagram is, is starting to be that way too.

Stephanie Budnik (27:41):
I think these are really insightful tips I think just by a wide gamut, both with what to expect, what to look for, how to gain some of that traction with partners. Um, so I appreciate all of that insight. This is really helpful and I hope to two other listeners as well. I have one last question and I'm asking everybody. So what is it that keeps you up at night still?

Phil Treadwell (28:03):
Um, that's a great question. I think what keeps me up at night, um, figuratively cuz I sleep really well at night, but <laugh> the thing, that thing, the thing that stays on my mind is, um, missed opportunity and not fully seasoning the season that we're in. That's hard to say. Seizing the season that we're in or, or capitalizing on, on opportunities. There's, you know, I I I consume a lot of, uh, Gary V. Gary Vaynerchuck content. He talks about regret and when you get to, you know, other seasons of life and looking back and wish it that you had done things differently, um, I don't have a lot of regrets up to this point. I think that there's that being mindful of not being a certain age and saying, I wish I had just thrown caution to the wind and done that thing. Or I wish I hadn't been so caught up in this over here that I lost sight of that over there. So of, of, of all things that kind of keep me up at night, it's making sure that I'm really prioritizing my time and efforts and relationships, you know, both tangible and intangible, um, in the right places. And, and I think, I think as long as we keep those things top of mind, we typically make good choices. And even when they're the wrong ones, we still learn something from it. So, um, I think that of of what, uh, mental focus I use in, in that particular topic, it's is probably around that.

Stephanie Budnik (29:30):
Okay. Well thank you so much for everything I appreciate.

Phil Treadwell (29:33):
Thank you for having me

Stephanie Budnik (29:34):
we hope to talk to you soon.

Phil Treadwell (29:36):
Absolutely. Thanks Stephanie.

Stephanie Budnik (29:37):
Thanks. Bye.

Stephanie Budnik (29:40):
Thanks for listening. For all the latest industry insights, subscribe to Mortgage Connects with M G I C on Apple, Stitcher, or Spotify, or check out mortgageconnects.com.

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